Curse

Numa Pompilius · May 31, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Because her PvE character would not stand a chance in PvP unless she grinds a lot post-ascension to get all the skills and runes and weapons she'd not got on her way through the campaign.

If, on the other hand, PvP was separate from PvE, she could create a character which had access to all skills, weapons, and armor, and any difficulties she'd encounter in PvP would be due to her personal skill, and her teams.

I agree that the question is academic, it is clearly against the intention of A.net, but I think it'd give both PvP'ers and PvE'ers a better, friendlier, game.

Jackell · May 31, 2005, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavenXion

No no bad, no bad, no no! Do you know how quickly people would take advantage of this? Get a guild that has 30 or 40 members to flood the arena in the wee hours of one morning, "fight" each other consiting of one team taking off there armor and dancing. Get one person with a new skill and have him tell the four on the other team "Get ready to capture it". Until within maybe 1-2 hours everyone there has all skills, all runes, and all weapons unlocked!

Yeah, people would exploit it. Good for them. Explouits happen. But a guild of 30 or 40 would take way longer than 1 - 2 hours to get everything. Also, the game wants to cut back on taking weeks to get a skill, this is a good way, and I see it as a better idea than the current one, where PvE and grinding in it is the only way to get something, and a UAS, which Anet is dead-set against. If you have a better idea than the standard "Open a UAS" or "Just grind and get stuff" then I'm all ears.

StandardAI · May 31, 2005, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

I dislike being limited in how I and my guild PvP. I dislike having to repeat PvE content I have already experienced just to get what I want in PvP. I was under the impression from pre-release from the devs' own statements in various interviews, and my own experience with the game prior to release, that this game was supposed to pull away from every tedious factor that appears in all your classical RPG's, one of these being time spent vs. playing skill. Despite how many continue to compare GW's grind to other games' grind, you cannot argue the fact that GW currently has grind, and that it was never supposed to. Being limited in skills and other things, also means that until my guild and I have gotten everything we will need, we are forced to just PvP with what we have. Like KOR pointed out in the interview, this means we can only really PvP when the right people with the right things are online at the right time. At day time, we might have 8 people on who have monk things unlocked, and at night we have 8 people who have warrior things. Ofcourse, this isn't the case with iQ, however it might aswell have been. Still, we are limited as to what we can do, and sometimes, this means either ditching one guy for another one, simply because he has better things, or ditching the PvP run all together because with have 8 guys, and only one of them has monk things unlocked. We are "half-assed" like this, not because we are bad at PvP and not because we don't like PvE, but because the only way to not being "half-assed" is by repeating the PvE content we're already tired of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

In almost all games the best players, be that through equipment, achievments, or the respect of their fellow gamers, tend to be the most dedicated and hardcore players.
These players play the whole game, they do what must be done, they discover and achieve things others dont, and generally whether they agree with aspects of the game or not they accept them and utilise them and play through those aspects.

Under no conditions should that ever change in gaming.

My box was advertised as skill over time played, not sure what yours says when you open the covor though. I have no problem with having to beat the entire game to get every skill I want, If that were the case no one would be complaining. But beating the game a second, third, and fourth time to compete in the meta game however is a different story.

Awol Duteq · May 31, 2005, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volarian

Hmmmm, consider this noobish but since I haven't created a PvP build yet....maybe it's just more an inexperienced thought but.....

Wasn't the whole intent of giving the choice of PvE vs PvP builds, to keep them separate? I didn't know that a PvP build could cross over, which is what allot of these rants are making it seem. If that is the case, then there is the flaw and solution. The character selection screen that gives you an option of PvE or PvP, should be the determining factor of where THAT characters has access to. Furthermore, the PvP arenas those PvE players see in towns/outposts should be PvP against other PvE players who chose to enter the arena. While the originally built PvP character has their own areas for action.........this is how I thought it was to have been from the start.

The PVP Builds intent was only for those that wish to hop in and play an instanced character that is rolled at ..basically random to play pvp right off the get go. A 'Pick-up-and-go' character. It is not meant to be carried over into anything and they won;t ever give this character everything right off the bat (whine all you want, I'd bet just about anything it won't ever happen). The RPG Character however can do both, and it was intended this way.

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 04:13 PM // 16:13

I have no qualms with unlocking through PvP, although I still feel UAS would be better since it'd be a truly level playing field from the getgo.

Ordas · May 31, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I'm sorry if this hasn't been mentioned already....

but ISN'T there already a "unlock skills over time in PvP"??
in the form of leveling up and getting skills points... then its simply a matter of trotting over to the Skill merchant that you need to talk to and buying the skill....

although i guess money might become an issue

Loviatar · May 31, 2005, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ordas

I'm sorry if this hasn't been mentioned already....

but ISN'T there already a "unlock skills over time in PvP"??
in the form of leveling up and getting skills points... then its simply a matter of trotting over to the Skill merchant that you need to talk to and buying the skill....

although i guess money might become an issue

there seems to be a bit of difficulty in getting enough skill points for what they want

and the elite skills have to be gotten with a signet of capture from a boss

otherwise all are available from quests or trainers

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 04:45 PM // 16:45

There's also the issue of runes and weapon mods. The drops for these in the hall of heroes is very low and nowhere near alleviates the grind in the game.

Prophecyx7 · May 31, 2005, 04:47 PM // 16:47

As alot of people have pointed out, gaining skills, items, runes in pvp would be easily exploitable. Therefore this is not a plausible idea. Many people may complain about the PvE grind, but it really isn't much of a grind. I am an avid PvPer but i play PvE to unlock the skills and runes for my PvP character. I agree that it is hard to unlock skills after using all your skill points and i see why people would consider this a grind. I found that when I changed my secondary class I could not do any quests to gain my skills because i had already completed most of the side quests.

I propose a different solution from seperating PvP from PvE. To reset certain quests when you change your secondary class and allow you to gain the skills you need by completing these quests once again. I agree with many of you that there is a small grind in the game and it may affect the people who only want to PvP. But if Anet were to allow players to gain skills from more quests as well as using skill points, it would signifigantly reduce the grind and there would be no reason to create a UAS button or an "unlock through PvP".

Darc.Syde · May 31, 2005, 05:03 PM // 17:03

so that's what UAS stood for...

sama · May 31, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khrysyl

AI, one would assume that the good folks at A.Net have beaten the game by now, can we agree this far at least?

sadly, that's not even true. very few of the devs actually play this game. very few game developers in general play their own game as intended. how do i know this? well, 1. we have game developers from prominent gaming houses in my guild, and 2. we share a vent server with some of anet's developers.

and what's even more interesting, some of the developers are for reducing grind and UAS. anywayz, just FYI =)

Corwin_Andros · May 31, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

If I'm understanding part of the problem right now outside of the UAS issue is that there is not much really going on in teh way of GvG, making the ladder more of a joke than the competition it was intended to be.

SImple enough.. if they put whatever PvP skill/item gain in PvP.. Put it soley in GvG and make the quality of whatever you get based on how quality of the competition..

What I mean is that you get better rewards for winning against higher ranked guilds than you would against lower ranked guilds.. It would keep top guilds from making scrub guilds to better themselves and would eventually in effect level things out among the varying guilds competing..

Not only that but it would put some life back into the guild ranking ladder, it would get people out of the mindset that HoH is the ONLY place worth PvP action.

Just an idea..

The Virago · May 31, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Because her PvE character would not stand a chance in PvP unless she grinds a lot post-ascension to get all the skills and runes and weapons she'd not got on her way through the campaign.

"I cannot win unless I have at my disposal all possible runes and elites from which to choose." is the single greatest fallacy in existance upon these forums.

By way of example, my PvP Mesmer/Elementalist last night won on four different teams (losing twice over the six runs total) with nothing more than what my PvE Mesmer/Monk has discovered AT LEVEL 12.

Skill isn't about having everything to choose from... skill is about finding ways to win even if you do not. Something most PvP players today never grasp.

Good PvP isn't about winning all the time, or about losing only if someone else has 'better skills'. Good PvP is about winning when it isn't expected and learning from your losses so you can use that experience to win next time.

Frankly, whenever I hear 'I can't win unless I have access to all the elites and skills' all I really hear is, 'I'm a n00b. Gimme what I want or I'll whine until your head explodes.'

Corwin_Andros · May 31, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

Frankly, whenever I hear 'I can't win unless I have access to all the elites and skills' all I really hear is, 'I'm a n00b. Gimme what I want or I'll whine until your head explodes.'

That's funny.. truly.. I got a chuckle out of it. Reminds me of my 15 year old. ( not your statement.. but the whining part..Doesn't get him what he wants either)

/end reference..lol

Being primarily a PvE player who occasionally enjoys a bit of PvP I don't find the current system a hassle.

However I can see that it does force people to play aspects of the game they seem to hate. That's why I.. and several others have come up with several ideas to give them options for gaining things in PvP that won't really mess things up as far as PvE goes and won't require either a UAS or a seperate ladder. I won't rehash all the ideas I've posted.. they are in pretty much all of the endless grind threads.

Unfortunately, while there are a few openminded and reasonable heads taking part in this umm.. discussion.. there remain a majority that insist that their way is the only way and if it doesn't go their way it's the highway for them and immediate doom for GW due to their absence. (Not trying to speak for all of you folks, but the attitudes speak volumes..on both sides come to think of it)

By now it should be an accepted fact that the devs have no intention of reinstituting the UAS used for testing during the BWE's. Gaile said as much.

Regardless of what anyone wants to think in either of the diehard camps, this game was not made just for you. It was made as a middle of the road game that would try and capture the best elements of both styles of play. Alex Weekes made the statment that the game is not PvP or PvE.. it is meant to be BOTH

Yes, the core combat system is designed for balanced PvP action.. better than any other I've ever played. But it is also made to grab and keep the attention of PvE players as well. The PvE content isn't a tutorial for PvP, PvP is not the endgame of PvE. THey are not meant to be diametrically opposed to one another in GW, but a way to integrate the two and not get burned out on either. I play PvE.. I get bored with it so I go PvP awhile.. I PvP until I get bored, so I go PvE awhile.. Simple as that.

If all PvE was meant to be was a filler or tutorial, why would they spend the countless hours they obviously have to make the PvE environment so detailed? I'm not talking about the pretty graphics alone.. but things like fish swimming in an obscure creek in a far off corner of an EA.. and not just a couple of fish but 2-3 obviously different species.. If PvP was their only real goal, all that effort would have been better spent elsewhere.

Likewise it is not a strictly PvE game, given that at least to this point there is not enough content to fully explore all of the skill and combinations available to the ever changing fluid nature of high level PvP

The PvE is not complete in any sense.. This game was from the beginning based on the idea that there were going to be expansions. It was never a case of "Well here is a game. Let's see how it sells and then maybe make an expansion for it for a little extra cash."

This game is even now ever growing.. Point in case, they are adding new areas and content already.

If either side thinks for one moment this game is all about them and only about them.. sorry to burst your bubble. Its all about ALL of us.

So everyone please drop the grandstanding. Ifyou want to see improvements in the game, stop the flaming and the whining, and come up with CONSTRUCTIVE ideas that have an actual chance of working within the scope of the devs vision for this game.

That means PvP need to stop with the "I HAVE to have everything at once or I'm not ever gonna be happy.. and oh by the way I know everything better than you scub PvE people ever will" routine .. and PvE people stop with the "You PvPers are all just f'ing lazy, elitist brats!" routine..

Let's put our collective and hopefully intelligent heads together and come up with some good, if compromising options that will work for the majority of players and not just your faction.

It gets tiresome when all we keep seeing is how much stuff sucks and don't get near enough new ideas and actually ahve the ideas that many of us have submitted discussed. Everyone is too entirely worked up and polarized into their narrow tunnel of thought to even open up and consider the other side.

So everyone take a step back.. take a deep breath.. and look at the BIG picture for a bit and see what you can think of that will work for both sides AND fit within the existing scope of the game without shredding it in two.
*Steps off soapbox and waits*

Grumpy Old Man · May 31, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

/clap on

# Edit #

I just want to say that I feel that do what you must to better the pvp experience, but the Elite skills are just that, Elite, and should remain that way. If an elite skill is making or breaking a battle, then it should be a gloriously even matched battle to partake in, and with spectator mode comming should be a joy to watch.

To start the "out of the box" thinking.

How about unique pvp mode where everyone starts with 0$ and starter skills to pick from. Winner of the round gets cash, and team cash per kill. Begin each round buying skills with money. Makes the first round like "knife round" from CS, and totaly level playing field for everybody.

I could see a pvp only quest line that perhaps went something like:
- Score 2 Kill shots
- Kill a monk/x
- Get 3 consecutive wins
- Win with 0 party member deaths

Something that would signify the same level of player skill that getting an Elite skill in pve instills.

Just a couple "out there" idea's to get the creative minds working.

Aloren · May 31, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

/clap
That's the balance my friend.
Quite honestly, you don't need to have all of your skills to be at the top of your PvP game. My friends and I all threw together some PvP chars and di some team PvP and got 9 consecutive wins off of half our party not having any extra skills unlocked for their char.

Lazarous · May 31, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

So everyone take a step back.. take a deep breath.. and look at the BIG picture for a bit and see what you can think of that will work for both sides AND fit within the existing scope of the game without shredding it in two.

Big picture, huh. Ok, heres a big picture for you - what does the UAS system do? Eliminates grind. What is the base mechanic for an 'unlock' system? Grind (or repetition or whatever you want to call it, functionally its the same).

What is the reason for not giving people full power at the start of an rpg game? So you can start the challenges off easy and make things progressively harder at the same time as making the characters stronger. Difficulty ramps with power. What is the purpose of not giving some people (who are not necessarily better) full power in a competitive pvp framework?

Note the competitive part. I can't answer that question. I don't think a satisfactory answer exists that will make sense from a competitive pvp mindset.

Logically, then, a pvp unlock system is a more palatable version of the pve unlock system but has at its roots the idea that you'll be fighting unevenly until you spend enough time in-game.

Are there levels of grind a person is willing to undergo to unlock part of the game they like? sure. That doesn't change the fact that they would prefer it if they didn't have to grind at all. Are there decreases in grind a pve player would be willing to see happen? Sure, but it doesn't change the fact that they would rather make it so that their full skillset is a rarity that requires immense time investment (i.e. earning).

If you lowered grind requirements to say, beating the game the first time through...that takes maybe 40 hours on average and then unlocked everything to pvp characters, would pve find this acceptable? Its a massive change from the 500+ hour grind you see now to accomplish a similar feat but it is a compromise.

My guess? you'll see the same screaming and bitching for and against you can witness now.

Make no mistake, all these 'compromises' do is change the time required to reach full unlock anyway. Unless you can come up with compelling logical reasons why competitive pvp is better in an unequal situation, the only point of compromising is to assuage the feelings of some people who like what is in essense ganking.

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Thank you for completely misconstruing the PvP mentality for the third time in the exact same fashion, Virago. I might as well start keeping count and keeping track of how many times you repeat the same fallacious misrepresentation.

PvPers are not arguing that they should have everything in the game because "they cannot win without all the skills" according to you. They want them for a level playing field. Everyone in an ideal world would have everything unlocked for a completely fair PvP experience. A game where one side has a significant advantage over another from the onset of the match starting due to the rules of the game itself is not a balanced game and is detrimental to competitive play. Even if one can win with a gimped PvP template against lesser skilled opponents with unfair advantages, it does not make the game a level playing field. Please understand what I have said before commenting.

Lazarous, it'd more than 500 hours to unlock everything. Unlocking everything would take at the very least a thousand hours with the current drop tables.

The Virago · May 31, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Thank you for completely misconstruing the PvP mentality for the third time in the exact same fashion, Virago. I might as well start keeping count and keeping track of how many times you repeat the same fallacious misrepresentation.

PvPers are not arguing that they should have everything in the game because "they cannot win without all the skills" according to you. They want them for a level playing field. Everyone in an ideal world would have everything unlocked for a completely fair PvP experience. A game where one side has a significant advantage over another from the onset of the match starting due to the rules of the game itself is not a balanced game and is detrimental to competitive play. Even if one can win with a gimped PvP template against lesser skilled opponents with unfair advantages, it does not make the game a level playing field. Please understand what I have said before commenting.

The 'level playing field' is a myth. Please understand what I have said before commenting. Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

Lazarous, it'd more than 500 hours to unlock everything. Unlocking everything would take at the very least a thousand hours with the current drop tables.

1) You have no evidence beyond the purely anecdotal to support this assertion.

2) You seem not to understand that, in the context of game design and longevity, time sinks are good, not bad... and they are something that anyone who has played them for any period of time knows as expected.

But let's suppose you're right and it takes exactly 500 hours to unlock everything, or 1000 hours at the current drop rates -- this means you have to commit at least 1000 hours to the game to reap the full set of all possible rewards.

Yup, that's pretty well in alignment with MMO standards.

3) How do you fail to see that demanding shorter returns for time invested IS the 'NOW NOW NOW' mentality of which I am speaking?

It might be different if the people wanting it 'NOW NOW NOW' were willing to give something back to the playing community at large, but consistantly, the attitude is 'Give us this so we can go off in the corner over here and not have to bother with any of you further.'

Yeah, that's really going to win over ArenaNet... or anyone here.... or anyone interested in seeing the community in the game flourish. (wry grin)

AirOnG · May 31, 2005, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virago

The 'level playing field' is a myth

This is a fundamentally very ignorant statement.